tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post5989020820381827193..comments2024-02-16T16:24:09.472+10:00Comments on 子貓物語~~附庸風雅: 西人無「祖國」?Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-45274417608979260372012-12-19T07:45:39.038+10:002012-12-19T07:45:39.038+10:00謝!
在英國圖書館藏的搜索結果,正如我提過的,是homeland比較流行(72 Vs 423),不過...謝!<br />在英國圖書館藏的搜索結果,正如我提過的,是homeland比較流行(72 Vs 423),不過含義也比motherland廣。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-80379224804846771182012-12-19T02:28:11.298+10:002012-12-19T02:28:11.298+10:00Actually, there is a website which can help us fin...Actually, there is a website which can help us find out the usage of motherland/homeland. <br />http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/<br /><br />"The British National Corpus (BNC) is a 100 million word collection of samples of written and spoken language from a wide range of sources, designed to represent a wide cross-section of current British English, both spoken and written."<br /><br />We can search these two words on this website. Timmynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-85304635128551133382012-12-08T21:48:38.154+10:002012-12-08T21:48:38.154+10:00高見!謝謝。高見!謝謝。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-75561539680447918202012-12-08T12:05:41.399+10:002012-12-08T12:05:41.399+10:00同文同字,字義時有變更,有寬有緊,何況係唔異文異字。
motherland 、 fatherlan...同文同字,字義時有變更,有寬有緊,何況係唔異文異字。<br /><br />motherland 、 fatherland 、 homeland三字,貌似都係人本源之地,然細細思索,內涵實有異。motherland係mother而來,與其人之母有關,fatherland由其父,而homeland由其原家地。多數人,三者都相同。字典寫同本源地,原生地,亦可理解。字義化寬,交替而用,亦係語文常事。<br /><br />mother、father、home,與祖字,實義不甚同。祖有一直追古之感。mother、father、home則否,就算可衍追古,然而語感全然不同。古代社會,甚不安定,頻頻遷移。古人亦未必特別留戀遠古祖先經過一地。讀歐洲史王室,女時時嫁到遠處,男時時到別處做王公,完全大兜亂,何處時祖?<br /><br />可況人家叫land,而非country、state、nation等字,與政權政體,毫無轇輵。此意味只繫於地,而非國。<br /><br />唐人有祖先崇拜,守土重遷,文化與泰西各國不同。然而唐人,頂多叫祖地,意思爲祖先留落之地,意味不同。唐人另一字家山,係祖墳山地之義,表示祖先之地。無論山與地,都與國無涉。若叫我繙homeland,按唐人習慣,我會叫家山。不就算係唐人家山,亦非不可移,唐人遷葬亦常見。<br /><br />繙motherland 、 fatherland 、 homeland爲祖國,實在有所偏差。祖國一字,由泰西之fatherland抄襲,係翻譯字。祖爲男人系,father引伸男人。今義亦是由fatherland祖國兩義混合體。此字極可能日本人所繙。清末民初,人人急於求變,由日本求學歸來,帶入此字。<br /><br />古明德只是講,「中國人極少用祖國」。荒言老師之文章,稍稍粗疏。荒言「《明史》《辭源》《辭海》、魏源、秋瑾等等都只算極少。。。?」亦不能反駁甚麼。只可能證明其有,不可證多寡。人家言極少,只有以古人不同時代字頻去反駁。如類近用字,古人有何揀擇呢?好顯然知古明德知有祖國,否則就不會講極少。<br /><br />舊籍之祖國,其義是否與今同,實在懷疑。舊籍中之祖國,分祖、國二字看待,抑或合祖國一字看待,需要斟酌。就算出現祖國,亦可以係巧合,或是抄襲。清魏源寫聖武記,「回回祖國」,似抄明史「回回祖國」。聖武記係講西域,抄自明史西域傳,並不奇怪。而秋瑾已是清末人,去過日本留學,借用日本西學用字,亦是合理。<br /><br />自清末到民國,極多人到日本留學,時有借用日本用字,祖國一字,亦不例外。以我感覺,大清,民國,人民共和國三者,用頻顯然大大有別。人民共和國確時有濫情之用。當然,要有實證,必須有統計方行。OmniBushttp://ruby-omnibus.xanga.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-51672794795578576022012-12-07T21:21:56.341+10:002012-12-07T21:21:56.341+10:00狗比貓更加多人愛?
http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?co...狗比貓更加多人愛?<br /><br />http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=motherland%2Chomeland%2Cfatherland%2Ccat%2Cdog&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-88026172600057852772012-12-07T21:11:19.633+10:002012-12-07T21:11:19.633+10:00以下是 http://books.google.com/ngrams 對motherland, ho...以下是 http://books.google.com/ngrams 對motherland, homeland 的結果,給大家參考:<br /><br /><br />http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=motherland%2Chomeland&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-35780060653818464662012-12-07T11:29:29.133+10:002012-12-07T11:29:29.133+10:00多謝提供連結。
解釋為何俄羅斯用motherland而大多歐洲語用fatherland。
這個最...多謝提供連結。<br />解釋為何俄羅斯用motherland而大多歐洲語用fatherland。<br /> <br />這個最有趣:<br />"Motherland" in German is the land of origin, "Vaterland" is something pathetic like "fallen for his Vaterland".Similar to "The land I come from..."and "My country"<br /><br />受了俄羅斯影響吧,我見過有些在澳洲的大陸作者,常寫「母國」的。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-18431185654021752272012-12-07T11:22:31.597+10:002012-12-07T11:22:31.597+10:00印象中好似都係聽蘇俄人士講Motherland比較多...好奇地查下, 見到都有鬼佬疑惑Mother...印象中好似都係聽蘇俄人士講Motherland比較多...好奇地查下, 見到都有鬼佬疑惑Motherland同Fatherland呢個問題:<br />http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090719223754AAYMURO<br />http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120419202348AAu7vbr<br />經好心網友解答下, 原來同係佢地語言文化有關係!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-60523417037323834092012-12-07T10:38:02.347+10:002012-12-07T10:38:02.347+10:00歐洲語系大多用Fatherland....可能是詞性分陰陽之故,我不識,亂猜吧。
英語系講 Moth...歐洲語系大多用Fatherland....可能是詞性分陰陽之故,我不識,亂猜吧。<br />英語系講 Mother country 多一點。motherland乃後起新字?也是亂猜。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-69810193160426164322012-12-07T10:34:45.671+10:002012-12-07T10:34:45.671+10:00communist basher
我都是,proudly so.
LOLcommunist basher<br />我都是,proudly so.<br />LOLChrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-69232838566724062372012-12-07T09:49:22.676+10:002012-12-07T09:49:22.676+10:00經驗上覺得洋人(英語系)的確少用motherland這字,但聽過2nd generation Ita...經驗上覺得洋人(英語系)的確少用motherland這字,但聽過2nd generation Italian migrant說"I'd go back to my parents' homeland this holiday". 愚見是香港人在97前亦不多用祖國這詞,只記得少時國貨公司宣傳"愛祖國,用國貨",當時覺得很土。常將祖國掛在口邊的都是那些面貌猙獰的左派人仕,可能是Pavlov's association關係,對這詞有點反感.<br />BTW I admit that I am a communist basher, so I may be biased but happy to be so. Aussie Moronnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-52971527395692769052012-12-07T07:48:50.717+10:002012-12-07T07:48:50.717+10:00The only people I met talking about motherland are...The only people I met talking about motherland are the first generation immigrants<br /><br />As for the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong, the use of the event reflects which camp the user came from.<br /><br />一語中的,閣下道出問題的要點。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-45576275766920696172012-12-07T07:44:00.053+10:002012-12-07T07:44:00.053+10:00正如兩位老師Willsin和Allen教導,要有特別的選取方法。正如兩位老師Willsin和Allen教導,要有特別的選取方法。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-77918635987251228892012-12-07T05:06:27.394+10:002012-12-07T05:06:27.394+10:00My experience in Canada is that the Westerners do ...My experience in Canada is that the Westerners do not have strong emotions on “motherland”. It is not a term people use in their daily conversation. The only people I met talking about motherland are the first generation immigrants. For people from the West, Eastern Europeans feel more strongly on motherland than other nationalities, say, English or French.<br /><br />If the dictionary definition of the word is “the country where someone was born” then more confusion may result. An Englishman born in China certainly cannot claim China being his “motherland”. Perhaps Shorter dictionary was wise not to list this word. Other dictionaries may yield to the pressure of popular use by including it. <br /><br />As for the transfer of sovereignty over Hong Kong, the use of the event reflects which camp the user came from. The British and those with fair understanding of international matters would use “Handover”; and China and those follow their propaganda will use “Return”. There seems no corresponding differentiation in Chinese between the two.<br /><br />「回歸祖國」literally 惟有譯成 Return to Motherland. <br /><br />Samson,<br />Ontario, Canada<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-74400846805389254572012-12-07T03:14:04.024+10:002012-12-07T03:14:04.024+10:00以google 等搜索器的資料去進行學術研究其實這幾年很流行,尤其是complex network ...以google 等搜索器的資料去進行學術研究其實這幾年很流行,尤其是complex network 來模擬和研究社交網絡/社會.著名的sixth degree of separation 也是出自這些研究。當中也有不少是研究和語言有關的。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-38237374885032279132012-12-06T22:31:09.063+10:002012-12-06T22:31:09.063+10:00"WTF did you you say?"
LOL
不大會吧,畢竟是字典上也..."WTF did you you say?" <br />LOL<br />不大會吧,畢竟是字典上也收的字。<br />日常使用,的確是where I was born, mother country 和 homeland 比 motherland 流行。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-56634283794534798242012-12-06T22:21:31.756+10:002012-12-06T22:21:31.756+10:00我對此文homeland及motherland的解釋不敢茍同,此文作者完全没有quote refer...我對此文homeland及motherland的解釋不敢茍同,此文作者完全没有quote reference,不知他理據何在。homeland 和motherland 在解作祖國畤分別根本不大,只是homeland較常用如果你對一個鬼佬說"I would go back to my motherland in January", 他可能會瞠大眼對你說"WTF did you you say?" <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-81175740438206679702012-12-06T21:41:08.058+10:002012-12-06T21:41:08.058+10:00不敢,各抒己見而已。
古先生首先批評「香港回歸祖國」譯成Hong Kong's return...不敢,各抒己見而已。<br />古先生首先批評「香港回歸祖國」譯成Hong Kong's return to the Motherland的" 的 motherland 是選字不當。D.H. Lawrence 的handy example,我覺得是不倫不類,Lawrence不用,有其他人用。<br />說這個譯法是「文法固然沒有錯,卻是現代漢語式英文」,這個我沒話說了,明明是英美字典都有收的字------請問該怎樣譯?<br />跟著他狠狠批評原文的「祖國」二字,不是古人用的好中文,這才是他的重點,可惜是偏差了,這個問題荒言老師答得詳細。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-14869458420787169712012-12-06T21:13:08.848+10:002012-12-06T21:13:08.848+10:00文章主要觀點是homeland是「視之為家的地方」,motherland是「出生的地方」,似乎很清楚...文章主要觀點是homeland是「視之為家的地方」,motherland是「出生的地方」,似乎很清楚,但是日常使用又不是這樣明確劃分,兩者都有人混著用。<br /><br />Concise Oxford 解釋Motherland是Native country<br />Webster解釋Motherland是 one's native land 或 the land of ones'ancesters(即是例如在外國出世的華人看中國)<br />Webster解釋homeland,也是 one's native land.<br />Longman又解釋 homeland是 the country where someone is born.<br />Macquarie解釋homeland為 native land並以澳洲土著為例,指其先祖的來源地。<br /><br />Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-34921313673150984492012-12-06T20:16:40.500+10:002012-12-06T20:16:40.500+10:00這篇文章談motherland與homeland的分別,可以參考:
http://blog.sina...這篇文章談motherland與homeland的分別,可以參考:<br />http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_65c38ed90100i24r.html<br /><br />「一位在中国出生的人士,但是现在已经加入美国籍,就不再继续拥有中国国籍,却拥有美国国籍,这样的人士就是一个Chinese American。所以China 就是他的 motherland 但是 USA 是他的 homeland。」Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-88925568611257480562012-12-06T20:08:40.757+10:002012-12-06T20:08:40.757+10:00其他歐洲語系如何說「祖國」,與「英美國民極少說our motherland」是兩件事。即使其他歐洲語...其他歐洲語系如何說「祖國」,與「英美國民極少說our motherland」是兩件事。即使其他歐洲語系常用motherland或fatherland或類似單詞,也與英美國民是否極少說motherland無關。要判斷「英美國民極少說our motherland」是否符合事實,不必牽扯英語以外的語言。<br /><br />Homeland主要意思確是「祖國」之意,但含意與motherland有微細分別,用法因此也有異。例如United States Department of Homeland Security,中文就會譯為「美國國土安全部」,而不是「美國祖國安全部」,而美國人也不可能說United States Department of Motherland Security。當然,一般使用時,homeland的意思,確實多數就是「祖國」。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-14168469512463796692012-12-06T19:11:44.191+10:002012-12-06T19:11:44.191+10:00
很驚訝Chris兄寫出這篇blog文。古德明在他數百字報文中,只說出﹝也只能說出﹞他的 perce...<br />很驚訝Chris兄寫出這篇blog文。古德明在他數百字報文中,只說出﹝也只能說出﹞他的 perception -「極少說 motherland」。他總不能提出一個 global research report 去支持他的說法吧。<br /><br />用 google result 的條目數目去反駁古德明的 perception 及支持另一 perception,似乎並不科學和沒有多大說服力。<br /><br />我想古德明舉出「D H Lawrence - England, My England」,只用作 a handy example。這實在的例子並不建基於 D H Lawrence 從不用「motherland」或用「England」的次數多於「motherland」。敢望 Chris 兄指正。<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-32786673958706652342012-12-06T18:39:12.318+10:002012-12-06T18:39:12.318+10:00「中共不是香港人的袓國,而袓國一詞是中共用來愚民套語。」這一點我倒是很同意的。
中國幾千年來,頂多幾...「中共不是香港人的袓國,而袓國一詞是中共用來愚民套語。」這一點我倒是很同意的。<br />中國幾千年來,頂多幾百年便改朝換代,也無礙乎「香港人的祖國是中國」這個事實。<br />中共一定不會前秋萬世不屹立不倒,除了中共自己,沒有人會認同中共等於中國的。<br />「祖國」這個概念在西人族群肯定有,motherland, fatherland, homeland, country of origin 等等。<br />澳洲和紐西蘭有六七成是英裔,有些守舊派的人,平日會說 I now call Australia home,但有時提起英國,還是說甚麼甚麼back "home",也就是我們的「祖國」了。Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10133122741874926109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-33943247365422278282012-12-06T18:08:42.683+10:002012-12-06T18:08:42.683+10:00看完古先生的文章,
不明白有什麼問題。
所謂"英美國民""極少說ou...看完古先生的文章,<br />不明白有什麼問題。<br /><br />所謂"英美國民""極少說our motherland",<br />本人少與洋人相處,<br />不知道。<br />閣下身處澳洲,<br />問吓洋人朋友不就最清楚嗎?<br /><br />古先生文章主要想講,<br />中共不是香港人的袓國,<br />而袓國一詞是中共用來愚民套語,<br />不說也罷。Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38403698.post-50509105469803041002012-12-06T17:18:55.886+10:002012-12-06T17:18:55.886+10:00我一向主張用sovereignty restoration of Hong Kong﹐這才符合歷史事...我一向主張用sovereignty restoration of Hong Kong﹐這才符合歷史事實﹐中英聯合聲明中也是用restore﹐中文是「中國恢復對香港行使主權」。文少http://jonathan_sky.mysinablog.com/noreply@blogger.com